traction control and rear locking diff

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MrTBum
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traction control and rear locking diff

Post by MrTBum »

I've recently read that one of the big differences between the Ranger and other utes is that when you lock the rear diff the front traction control stays engaged. So I decided to test it on mine while parked at the local servo.

2H/4H-locked diff-traction control still engaged
4L-locked diff-traction control disengages.

What's up with that? Why does it disengage in 4L? Did I misread the Ranger review? I figure that the best time to have the front traction control ON would be when I am going to be in 4L and locking the rear diff. When I'm 4WD in Anglesea with fellow Ranga members on the 26th of August and Lincoln is yelling at me to go up that steep muddy embankment, you better believe that I will have the truck in 4L, diff locked and I would have expected front traction control to be engaged!! Can anyone explain this to me?
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by lincolnland »

i wont be yelling. lol. ill be taken happy snaps. i find the traction control a hindrance when im at work driving in the mud. i switch it off, however you can disable it completely. mud needs momentum and the traction control brakes the wheels not letting them gain momentum. i have a lot to learn! looking forward to anglesea. cheers
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Torque666 »

I also turn off traction control when playing in mud or sand, As above you need momentum in these cases and T/C stops that.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

I have found the traction control to be a complete pita off road, I love 4L disengages it as I always forget to turn it off in 4H and only remember when things get harder then they should. It's amazing the different having it off makes in mud and sand, with it on it fights against you wanting to stop your momentum causing you to get stuck on crap you have no business being stuck on.

4L and we just cruise through crap in 3rd happy days all day, use the lockers as needed.
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rjbarrington
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

PX1 and PX2 are different, with PX2 keeping Brake Traction Control System engaged on the front when the rear locker is switched in. Note that Ranger has both Brake and Engine Traction Control Systems.
There’s no specific engineering reason for this, it’s just laziness and a problem because you’d want your locker and BTC working for you. Examples of vehicles makes with this issue are Toyota, Ranger PX, Pajero, Pajero Sport and MU-X. The Patrol Y62, Navara NP300, Everest and Ranger PX2 have BTC active with their rear lockers engaged; and yes, it makes a difference.
-- from https://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/electron ... ferential/

Also, https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-ne ... -analysis/

And a bit of PX2 / Everest comparison - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
Richard

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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Jalito »

diomac wrote:I have found the traction control to be a complete pita off road, I love 4L disengages it as I always forget to turn it off in 4H and only remember when things get harder then they should. It's amazing the different having it off makes in mud and sand, with it on it fights against you wanting to stop your momentum causing you to get stuck on crap you have no business being stuck on.

4L and we just cruise through crap in 3rd happy days all day, use the lockers as needed.
Engaging 4L does NOT disengage traction control. I think you are confused with electronic stability control (ESC). A lot of people seem to think they are the same thing and they are not. To disable traction control you need to press on the button that disables ESC until the ESC blinks. It takes longer than what the manual claims.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by lincolnland »

from my experience it is not possible to completely disable the traction control. yes it blinks to indicate its "off" but i regularly experience it popping back up on the dash when attempting to chuck it sideways on the clay pans and tracks. this thought was reaffirmed by the 4x4 trainer today. his words were "you cannot disable traction control completely. its a safety feature that cannot be disabled and with good reason". his words not mine. cheers
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Jalito »

Before I bought the Ranger I read a fair number of reviews etc from different sources and found the articles by Robert Pepper the most authoritative and trustworthy. That article illustrates why. Fantastic piece. What I like most of what he writes is you can tell he talks from own experience rather than regurgitating what he has been told or read from other sources, and he does it without an agenda. A true independent reporter. And he is a very experienced 4WDer.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

Jalito wrote: Engaging 4L does NOT disengage traction control.
Page 126 of the Ford Ranger Owners manual
Note: Shift to 4L will deactivate Engine
Traction Control and Trailer Stability Control
but Hill Descent Control, Hill Start Assist
and Brake Traction Control remain active.
Then when you engage the Diff Lock it disables all the ESC functions as per page 130 of the manual;
Note: When the system is engaged, the
Electronic Stability Program (ESP) functions
such as Stability Control, Traction Control,
Hill Descent Control, Emergency stop signal,
Hill Start Assist and Trailer Stability Control
will be deactivated
.

So when you are in 4L with the Diff Lock engaged yes the traction control is automatically turned off and pressing and holding the button down does nothing. Holding it for 5 seconds only applies to turning off Brake Traction Control in 4L when the Diff Lock is not engaged. It should be noted that Traction Control is a function of the Electronic Stability system, it is not seperate.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

I don't think the PX2 manual is entirely accurate on the locker disabling all ESP functions. See above references.
Richard

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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Jalito »

diomac wrote:
Jalito wrote: Engaging 4L does NOT disengage traction control.
Page 126 of the Ford Ranger Owners manual
Note: Shift to 4L will deactivate Engine
Traction Control and Trailer Stability Control
but Hill Descent Control, Hill Start Assist
and Brake Traction Control remain active.
Then when you engage the Diff Lock it disables all the ESC functions as per page 130 of the manual;
Note: When the system is engaged, the
Electronic Stability Program (ESP) functions
such as Stability Control, Traction Control,
Hill Descent Control, Emergency stop signal,
Hill Start Assist and Trailer Stability Control
will be deactivated
.

So when you are in 4L with the Diff Lock engaged yes the traction control is automatically turned off and pressing and holding the button down does nothing. Holding it for 5 seconds only applies to turning off Brake Traction Control in 4L when the Diff Lock is not engaged. It should be noted that Traction Control is a function of the Electronic Stability system, it is not seperate.
My post corrected your estatement that TC is disengaged when you engage 4L. You did not say anything about diff lock. I assume you do not engage the diff lock every time you drive in 4L. So When you say how good is the drive in 4L your are in fact experiencing the benefits of TC. As it should be. Experts agree that an effective TC beats rear did lock most of the time. Not always, but most of the time.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

Braked Traction Control can never activate if a Locker is engaged on the axle as both wheels are always spinning at the same constant rate so BTC won't get triggered.

Just looked at those 2 reference links, the technical analysis doesn't actually say BTC is enabled with the Locker engaged, it just says a locker is available and the Unsealed article suggests BTC is enabled on the front axle with the locker engaged but doesn't source any reference to back that up when all the Ford documentation is pretty clear from the owners manual to the workshop manuals. I would think Ford would know something about it.

From my own personal experiences I think I believe the owners manual.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

Jalito wrote:My post corrected your estatement that TC is disengaged when you engage 4L.
Well actually it does turn off all TC modes automatically in 4L other then BTC, so we can split hairs, and generally if I am in 4L playing then yeah I also have the locker engaged it's there to be used.
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Josh L
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Josh L »

Just to clarify. In PX2...

4L by itself will disable all but BTC.

4L + Rear diff lock same as above EXCEPT BTC is only on the front.

This was discovered by a few automotive journos and Ford originally stated they weren't sure and would do some fact finding, later confirming that BTC is on the front in 4L with rear locker, a feature that was new for the PX2.

It isn't something that was specifically entered into the user manual but most definitely is a feature of the PX2.

Basically it negates the requirement of a front locker, although you will still lose some (but not as much as full blown traction control) momentum, this feature should be fine for a fair whack of off-roaders out there.

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MrTBum
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by MrTBum »

Josh L wrote:Just to clarify. In PX2...

4L by itself will disable all but BTC.

4L + Rear diff lock same as above EXCEPT BTC is only on the front.

This was discovered by a few automotive journos and Ford originally stated they weren't sure and would do some fact finding, later confirming that BTC is on the front in 4L with rear locker, a feature that was new for the PX2.

It isn't something that was specifically entered into the user manual but most definitely is a feature of the PX2.

Basically it negates the requirement of a front locker, although you will still lose some (but not as much as full blown traction control) momentum, this feature should be fine for a fair whack of off-roaders out there.

PXII Manual d/cab 06/16 Sync 2
This is truly helpful as I was getting a bit dizzy reading through the post - possibly because I'm a bit hung over.

Secondly, I had no idea there was such a thing as BTC or ETC, thought it was either you traction control was on or off. Thanks everyone, obviously still learning about my PX2 and what makes it tick. Looking forward to going to Angelsea and learning more.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Tanamite »

I have tested my 2017 PX2 ranger in LR with locker on and can confirm the BTC remains active.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Josh L »

⛏️

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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by lincolnland »

wtf
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rkrenn »

Is there a setting in Forscan that displays the status of the different modes of the Traction control system?
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

Tanamite wrote:I have tested my 2017 PX2 ranger in LR with locker on and can confirm the BTC remains active.
Sorry but I call BS, if BTC was on with the locker is engaged both wheels would have to stop that's what the locker does it locks the diff so both wheels keep turning. I use mine all the time and have never had the wheels stopped via BTC when the rear locker is engaged.

There is a reason why the manual states to turn the TC off in low traction environments like sand and mud. This is where the locker is king, having the TC remain active would just have the TC fighting the locker. Case in point if you don't turn off the TC in a low traction environment like mud the TC does it's little head in and you get a Christmas tree of lights on the dash as it gives up and disables all the systems having a bitch until you turn the car off and back on again to reset it.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

diomac wrote:
Tanamite wrote:I have tested my 2017 PX2 ranger in LR with locker on and can confirm the BTC remains active.
Sorry but I call BS, if BTC was on with the locker is engaged both wheels would have to stop that's what the locker does it locks the diff so both wheels keep turning. I use mine all the time and have never had the wheels stopped via BTC when the rear locker is engaged.

There is a reason why the manual states to turn the TC off in low traction environments like sand and mud. This is where the locker is king, having the TC remain active would just have the TC fighting the locker. Case in point if you don't turn off the TC in a low traction environment like mud the TC does it's little head in and you get a Christmas tree of lights on the dash as it gives up and disables all the systems having a bitch until you turn the car off and back on again to reset it.
Mate, as you point out, both rear wheels will turn at the same speed, so there's no cross-axle slippage to trigger the rear BTC, and the computer knows locker is active so I don't think they'd activate on the rear anyway. With BTC active on the front with locked rear, you should get 3-wheel drive at least. I figure they must keep on eye on front/rear split cos we don't have a centre diff, so they shouldn't get a situation where BTC stops everything completely. Guess we'll need a video to prove it one way or another eh?
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

rkrenn wrote:Is there a setting in Forscan that displays the status of the different modes of the Traction control system?
@saeb Any ideas?
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by MickJT »

rjbarrington wrote:
diomac wrote:
Tanamite wrote:I have tested my 2017 PX2 ranger in LR with locker on and can confirm the BTC remains active.
Sorry but I call BS, if BTC was on with the locker is engaged both wheels would have to stop that's what the locker does it locks the diff so both wheels keep turning. I use mine all the time and have never had the wheels stopped via BTC when the rear locker is engaged.

There is a reason why the manual states to turn the TC off in low traction environments like sand and mud. This is where the locker is king, having the TC remain active would just have the TC fighting the locker. Case in point if you don't turn off the TC in a low traction environment like mud the TC does it's little head in and you get a Christmas tree of lights on the dash as it gives up and disables all the systems having a bitch until you turn the car off and back on again to reset it.
Mate, as you point out, both rear wheels will turn at the same speed, so there's no cross-axle slippage to trigger the rear BTC, and the computer knows locker is active so I don't think they'd activate on the rear anyway. With BTC active on the front with locked rear, you should get 3-wheel drive at least. I figure they must keep on eye on front/rear split cos we don't have a centre diff, so they shouldn't get a situation where BTC stops everything completely. Guess we'll need a video to prove it one way or another eh?
Mate you are spot on and that is how I understand it and have seen it work on my bus and other rangers countless times.

With Rear Diff lock on front BTC remains active which is exactly what you want.

Therefore when one of the front wheels spin the BTC would apply brake to that wheel sending torque to the other front wheel.

Not as good as a front locker but maybe half as good.
I would add that the BTC is a bit slow to kick in and lets to much wheel spin before the other side turns. Still better than no BTC at all.

And in the case of it fighting the diff lock that is just not true according to a diff specialist that quoted installing a front locker to my car.
I asked this exact question and he said they would not need to do anything to the electronics after they installed one.

With the locker on the BTC would not kick in as the vehicle would behave like it was driving down a normal road with no wheel slipping.

Also I’ve driven in every terrain except sand and I have never bothered to fully deactivate the BTC to the front wheels and there has never been a problem.
I just turn switch to 4low and use diff lock if I need it.

Mick


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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by diomac »

MickJT wrote: And in the case of it fighting the diff lock that is just not true according to a diff specialist that quoted installing a front locker to my car.
I asked this exact question and he said they would not need to do anything to the electronics after they installed one.

With the locker on the BTC would not kick in as the vehicle would behave like it was driving down a normal road with no wheel slipping.
That's the point and why I call BS, if the BTC does not kick in due to a locked diff then it can't be bloody active now can it? Once the diff lock is engaged BTC is disabled, Ford even say that. It may remain active on the front unlocked diff but it sure as hell isn't on the locked rear, and I also have a Harrops front diff lock as well. When they are one BTC is most certainly off.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by PPXR »

diomac wrote:
MickJT wrote: And in the case of it fighting the diff lock that is just not true according to a diff specialist that quoted installing a front locker to my car.
I asked this exact question and he said they would not need to do anything to the electronics after they installed one.

With the locker on the BTC would not kick in as the vehicle would behave like it was driving down a normal road with no wheel slipping.
That's the point and why I call BS, if the BTC does not kick in due to a locked diff then it can't be bloody active now can it? Once the diff lock is engaged BTC is disabled, Ford even say that. It may remain active on the front unlocked diff but it sure as hell isn't on the locked rear, and I also have a Harrops front diff lock as well. When they are one BTC is most certainly off.
On and not in use (not needed because there is no slip between the two rear or two front with locker engaged) is different to not being on.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Josh L »

PX 1s disabled BTC with rear locker. When it comes to the PX2, many automotive journalists have CONFIRMED BTC is still active on the front wheels with rear locker engaged. No BS. I reckon I've felt front BTC kick in on the front with my rear locker engaged in my PX2.



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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by Tanamite »

Yes in my original post I am referring to front BTC, as per the original thread question. Obviously rear won't intervene when locked.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by saeb »

As per Mickjt, I concur.

Traction control works on all four wheels but obviously if a diff is locked there is no slip from left to right hence why the front being unlocked will still use traction control. Keep in mind the PX2 uses a completely different system to run all this, a PX1 has nothing in common with a PX2, not one module is the same and no programming is the same. This is a 100% different system.

@rjbarrington - Sorry I didn't see your message until today but message me with what you want below and I will sort it.

Can do PIDS for anything in the ABS module. Check Forscan read PID data for available PIDS or use Forscan lite to monitor what you want then I will supply the required PIDS.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

Hi Stewart

I was thinking of the following:
ASB.BTC
ABS.BTC - BTCS-201D
ABS.DTSC_STATUS
ABS_EBD_MODE - EBD mode
4 x ABS traction control valve
PCM.4x4_SW
PCM.LOCKDIF

Not sure what else is there to indicate what it's doing. Couldn't see anything specific for E-TC unfortunately.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

@saeb I'm also curious if the slip or delay parameter on the BTC is programmable...
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by saeb »

rjbarrington wrote:Hi Stewart

I was thinking of the following:
ASB.BTC
ABS.BTC - BTCS-201D
ABS.DTSC_STATUS
ABS_EBD_MODE - EBD mode
4 x ABS traction control valve
PCM.4x4_SW
PCM.LOCKDIF

Not sure what else is there to indicate what it's doing. Couldn't see anything specific for E-TC unfortunately.
No problems Richard,

Will put it on this weeks to do list.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by saeb »

rjbarrington wrote:@saeb I'm also curious if the slip or delay parameter on the BTC is programmable...
There are no options in the ABS asbuilt for this. It will be firmware based unfortunatly so cannot be changed.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by rjbarrington »

Cheers Stewart. I kinda get why they wanted to allow some wheelspin before ETC or BTC kick in, but it's still a PITA around town. Maybe with the TMS models they'll tighten it up in "normal" mode and allow more spin in sport / mud / etc modes.
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Re: traction control and rear locking diff

Post by saeb »

Richard,

Keep in mind that Forscan, IDS etc will usually show active, inactive etc. Being people are using Torque etc then they will only see a 0,1,2,3 etc. eg. 0=Inactive, 1=Active

I will base this info on Torque. I can not test every function as I'm sitting in the driveway not out and about trying to get wheels to slip.

ASB.BTC

PID: 22201D
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 100
Equation: A
Header 760

0=Inactive
1 byte response

ABS.BTC - BTCS-201D

As above

ABS.DTSC_STATUS

PID: 227217
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 100
Equation: A
Header 760

0=Inactive
1=Active
1 byte response - changes when pushing traction control button.

ABS_EBD_MODE - EBD mode

As Above

4 x ABS traction control valve

PID: 222B2C
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 100
Equation: A or B or C or D depending on byte being monitored
Header 760

4 byte response
Unable to test as no wheel slip in the driveway.

PCM.4x4_SW

PID: 221E77
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 100
Equation: A
Header 7E0

2=2H
3=4L
4=4H
1 byte response
4wd mode select dial on console.

PCM.LOCKDIF

PID: 2204E5
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 100
Equation: A
Header 7E0

1 byte response

Not there are no further calculations as they are all on or off.
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