Insurance

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rusty-pie
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Insurance

Post by rusty-pie »

A question about insurance. How do all the people that have "illegal modifications" insure their cars? I am not talking about anything monstrous, just something a little over the legal limit, e.g. a 40 mm lift kit combined together with a 20 mm taller tyre on a vehicle equipped with ESC, which in Queensland is not allowed. My insurer told me that they would not insure any vehicle which has modifications of any sort outside of the legal limit (even though they do not seems to know what those limits are.......), and I assume that it is pretty much the same for the majority of insurers.
I'm pretty sure that there are many fourbys around modified just outside of the legal limits, how is it possible to insure them?
lincolnland
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Re: Insurance

Post by lincolnland »

bloke i work with has just reinsured his px1 which is a pimped rig. 33s, 50mm lift etc etc. he told me he got onto iselect and through them got an insurer (can't remember who, but was a serious player in the insurance world) and listed every mod without issue. and cheap. think he said was about 800 bucks? ill ask him again when i see him. cheers 8-)
Nova4avr
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Re: Insurance

Post by Nova4avr »

You do have an obligation under the disclosure clause of most insurance policies. So if you don't disclose modifications then the insurance company has an out & may refuse to cover you. I always tell my insurance company of any modifications to my vehicle to be on the safe side & they adjust the premium if necessary.
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diomac
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Re: Insurance

Post by diomac »

Keep in mind just because an insurer lets you list the mods and accepts the policy does not mean you are actually covered, the people on the phone are not experts, do not know what is legal and what is not. They simply rely on the PDS and every PDS I have ever read clearly states are vehicle can be denied cover if the vehicle has illegal modifications or is not roadworthy in the state it is registered. This includes the likes of Club 4x4 that actively advertise they cover illegal mods, however their PDS goes out of it's way to say the exact opposite.

For clarity here is the Club 4x4 PDS;
If you contributed to the loss or intended the claim to happen
You will not be covered under the policy for any loss, damage or legal liability
if at the time of the event giving rise to the loss, damage or legal liability:

your vehicle was converted, altered or modified from its manufacturer’s specifications and is no
longer roadworthy or legal within the state it is registered.
Last edited by diomac on Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
SU22TU
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Re: Insurance

Post by SU22TU »

Nova4avr and Diomac are correct...

Some owners disclose, some don't, some have engineer certificates and papers and some just wing it...

For my Ranger, I have chosen Club 4x4, I asked them all the questions, replied to theirs and we agreed on a price.

Diomac I have to pull you up on the comment about Club 4x4... Club 4x4 does not advertise that they cover illegal mods... They advertise many vehicles they cover (Some with illegal mods and some without), and most of their phone operators know a lot more than other insurance companies I've dealt with.

I own a few cars and I'm sure you have too and know what I'm referring to, but they say they are more lenient when its comes to investigating a claim.

As a guide check this thread out
(always read all the paper work and deal with you insurance company of choice directly on matters of concern or questions, also most types of insurances have a cooling off period should you change)
http://www.newranger.net/forums/viewtop ... x4#p103389
Magnetic '17 FX4 | Green '99 Mirage with 4G63 | Green '99 Mirage | Red '98 Mirage with 4G93T | Green '91 S13 K's | Shiro White '17 370Z
diomac
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Re: Insurance

Post by diomac »

SU22TU my problem with Club 4x4 is they released a blog on their site about illegal modifications;

http://www.club4x4.com.au/modification/

In which they stated;
The key question however, is will we cover illegal modifications when it comes to claim time?
The simple answer is, yes
I have also seen them on many 4x4 sites and forums saying the same thing, I take that as a form of advertising and their PDS absolutely does not support the claim. Their underwriters legal team obviously wanted to make it quite clear as they changed the language of the PDS via a supplement to spell it out in black and white that is a vehicle is not legal it will not be covered.
SU22TU
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Re: Insurance

Post by SU22TU »

Diomac,

I agree with you...

Yes, I read the same article as well, investigated and asked questions, mine were answered.

I hear what you are saying but I want to show the full paragraph here...
The key question however, is will we cover illegal modifications when it comes to claim time?

The simple answer is, yes, unless it is found that any illegal modifications you’ve made to your vehicle contributed to your claim. As an example, if your vehicle rolls on or off-road, and during the process of assessment it is found that you had a suspension lift that is higher than the legal limit, we will investigate further as it’s a well known fact that a higher centre of gravity will affect a truck’s propensity to roll. If it is determined that this is the case, your claim may be refused or reduced. However, if you’re claiming for damage to a rear bumper when you hit that bollard in the car park, then the likelihood of that same lift being contributory to the claim is removed. Each case will be slightly different and as stated before, we don’t condone illegal modifications, but the above examples will give you a guide to how we want to manage claims at Club 4X4 – with a reasonableness test.
At the end of the day, its your (not directed solely at you , Diomac) hard earnt cash and you need to make sure you do the research before handing it over to anyone... I did mine, have you?
Magnetic '17 FX4 | Green '99 Mirage with 4G63 | Green '99 Mirage | Red '98 Mirage with 4G93T | Green '91 S13 K's | Shiro White '17 370Z
rusty-pie
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Re: Insurance

Post by rusty-pie »

SU22TU, you've hit the nail on the head. I've spoken to club 4x4 and they told me pretty much the same. My issue is that the modification I'm talking about involve tyres, e.g going up in diameter by 52.5 mm (2.5 mm above the legal limit in qld) or combining tyre size increase with lift on a car with ESC (again, not permitted in qld). They would have the grounds to refuse all claims related to accidents involving loss of control of the vehicle, which are 99% of serious accidents in my mind, as tyres are ultimately what keeps your car on the road. So will they most of the times reject a claim if the car has tyres a little taller than 50 mm over standard size?
For clarity: The reason why I'm asking the question is because I intend to declare all the modifications I'm going to perform, but I want to make sure that I will be able to insure the car once I've modified it.
SU22TU
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Re: Insurance

Post by SU22TU »

Rusty,

My calculations suggests you want to run 285/65/18... same size I'm running on mine (and im sure many others). I have a 2" all round lift and it just puts me out of Legal range (2.5mm due to tyres). My offset is Zero on a 9 wide, again that puts me out as well.

I am completely aware of my modifications and so is Club 4x4. They choose to still insure me but that does not mean they will cover me. They verbally said, should the increase in tyre diameter that is outside of legal range (2.5mm) be the sole purpose for the aciddent, I will not be covered.

How they determine this is and will be up to them, should it ever happen to me and the end result of my claim be unsatisfactory in my eyes, I can detest in my own legal way (highly likely to get the same result)
Magnetic '17 FX4 | Green '99 Mirage with 4G63 | Green '99 Mirage | Red '98 Mirage with 4G93T | Green '91 S13 K's | Shiro White '17 370Z
diomac
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Re: Insurance

Post by diomac »

The thing is they may say your sweet but by the letter of the PDS they have an out, you are solely at their whim as you don't actually have a legal leg to stand on and that makes me very nervous. Hell I am sure 99.8% of the time it would be right but there is always the possibility and the whole point of insurance is having a get out of goal free card up your sleeve.

The cynic in me thinks that it comes down to the size of the claim.
rusty-pie
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Re: Insurance

Post by rusty-pie »

Spot on about the tyre size. Also with a 45 mm lift which in Queensland cannot be combined with any other form of lift such as tyre diameter increase on cars with stability control. I spoke again to club 4x4 and the customer advisor confirmed that if an illegal modification is a potential contributing factor (quite different from sole cause!!!) they will consider the modification in their investigation and potentially reject the claim. Being the modification related to tyres, any accident involving skidding or loss of control is at risk.......
Jalito
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Re: Insurance

Post by Jalito »

What is ridiculous and frustrating in all this is that 50mm lift plus 50 mm increased tyre diameter is legal in Victoria. So the same claim could be rejected in QLD on the basis of legality of modifications but not in VIC.

I am insured with Club 4x4 and the main reason I think/hope they will lean on the side of covering a claim is that they would not remain in the business for very long if the 4x4 community loses trust in their claim to cover "illegally but reasonably modified" vehicles. And in this era of people sharing bad experiences in no time (as in this forum when something malfunctions), not even insurance companies can hide.
diomac
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Re: Insurance

Post by diomac »

Jalito wrote:50mm lift plus 50 mm increased tyre diameter is legal in Victoria.
I think you will find it's not legal in Victoria, when I last had a briefing on this subject from the engineers at TMR Qld and Vic both enforced VSB14 Section LS.
To remain within the scope of VSB14, a vehicle fitted with ESC and modified with a suspension
lift up to 50mm beyond the original manufacturer’s standard height can be carried out under the
basic modification without certification guidelines as listed in Section 4.
Vehicle modifications with a suspension lift above 50mm or due to a combination of any other
lift (tyres, or body blocks) are required to meet this guideline and Code LS7 or Code LS8 where
applicable.
This is covered by Vic Roads document VSI Number 8 section 13.7 Modifications to Vehicles Equipped with ESC.
For modification codes contained in Section LS of VSB 14, evidence should be obtained either from the vehicle manufacturer or through testing to determine the impact on the ESC system. To remain within the scope of this Section of VSB 14, a vehicle fitted with ESC must not be modified if the operation of the ESC is affected unless the ESC system is adjusted to restore its original operational characteristics.

Similarly, vehicles equipped with ESC must not have the ESC control unit disconnected.
Lastly the LS10 modification checklist for both Qld / Vic list checking the ESC for lane swerve testing and compliance which according to TMR has never been down due to costs involved.
rusty-pie
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Re: Insurance

Post by rusty-pie »

Is there any insurer other than club 4x4 that covers modifications outside of vsb14?
Terry 62
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Re: Insurance

Post by Terry 62 »

This is all pretty easy.

If your modifications are within your states regulations you will be covered by insurance.

If your modifications are outside your states regulations you will NOT be covered by insurance.

With any insurance company, if they investigate and find anything that makes your vehicle unroadworthy they can rejected your claim.

It's that simple.
gordo350
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Re: Insurance

Post by gordo350 »

Nothing simple about it. As this thread has shown.
rusty-pie
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Re: Insurance

Post by rusty-pie »

Terry 62: no it is not pretty easy. If you had taken the time to read the whole thread, you would have found out that there is at least one insurer (club 4x4) that covers vehicles that have been modified outside of vsb14. As everyone else say, they could reject the claim only if the modification is a contributory factor for the accident.
Terry 62
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Re: Insurance

Post by Terry 62 »

rusty-pie wrote:Terry 62: no it is not pretty easy. If you had taken the time to read the whole thread, you would have found out that there is at least one insurer (club 4x4) that covers vehicles that have been modified outside of vsb14. As everyone else say, they could reject the claim only if the modification is a contributory factor for the accident.
I did read the whole thread and it is that easy, if you have an illegal modification your insurance company can reject your claim, it is that simple.

If your vehicle does not meet your states regulations it should NOT be on public roads.
Last edited by Terry 62 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
diomac
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Re: Insurance

Post by diomac »

rusty-pie wrote:least one insurer (club 4x4) that covers vehicles that have been modified outside of vsb14.
Well that's just it they don't, their PDS is the legal document and is the only binding part of the entire equation not what they say on some forums or on their website blog. You are at their mercy without a single legal right if your vehicle does not meet your states legislation.
If your modifications are within your states regulations you will be covered by insurance.
If your modifications are outside your states regulations you will NOT be covered by insurance.
With any insurance company, if they investigate and find anything that makes your vehicle unroadworthy they can rejected your claim.
This is the truth of the matter in terms of your legal rights, if you are comfortable with the risk profile then that's all that matters. If you make your vehicle unroadworthy the liability rests with you ultimately. Your insurance company may or may not come to the party, but you need to own the responsibility as that is only legal standing.
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